Curse

Tyla · May 07, 2008, 04:06 PM // 16:06

^Whirling Defense is bad, and no D-Shot means you fail at Ranger.

Hara Makoto · May 07, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Whirling Defense is bad, and no D-Shot means you fail at Ranger.

an opinions an opinion , theres more to life than what you think . if some find needling shot to work well , then that's their choice , same goes with builds , if they work well then they work well , perhaps because things aren't what you'd do doesn't make them bad . imo i like and think it's a really effective skill in pve , but that's just what i think .

Tyla · May 07, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Maybe you can get away with saying what I said about Whirling Defense was an opinion.

But my point still stands about D-Shot. It's the most powerful interrupt in the game, and not taking it on your Ranger bar is bad.

Just because BHA is on your bar doesn't mean that D-Shot is made redundant. It disables ANY skill, the daze condition doesn't effect anything outside of spells.

(And if I'm showing my opinion, I don't show facts that should be commonly known.)

snaek · May 07, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Maybe you can get away with saying what I said about Whirling Defense was an opinion.

But my point still stands about D-Shot. It's the most powerful interrupt in the game, and not taking it on your Ranger bar is bad.

Just because BHA is on your bar doesn't mean that D-Shot is made redundant. It disables ANY skill, the daze condition doesn't effect anything outside of spells.

(And if I'm showing my opinion, I don't show facts that should be commonly known.)

well this is pve...
and things tend die fast to really take advantage of teh 20s disable

and sigs (like res sigs) r hardly a prob in pve
that leaves out using dshot for attack skills/chants/rituals mostly
(which in most cases, arent terribly critical to interupt)
the best use for it in pve would prolly be monster skills
(but those r situational depending on the area)

having said that, it prolly still would be more useful to bring than whirling

SnipiousMax · May 07, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

well this is pve...
and things tend die fast to really take advantage of teh 20s disable

There is always at least one skill that is problematic per each mob. Most of the time it's a healer's fast cast/fast recharge skill designed to annoy the snot out of you. Regardless, there is almost always one skill that you have to interrupt in order to avoid wasted time and resources fighting a PvE mob. Daze and physical attacks can take care of a great deal of spells, but will not interrupt anything with precision, so it's in your best interests to have at least one other interrupt. Distracting shot is the best option of the non-elite interrupts.

Personally I think that any Ranger bar that isn't specifically intended to use a weapon other than a bow, should have distracting shot.

Chthon · May 07, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

When it beats Splinter Volley, let me know, kthx.

1. How about when you have 1 priority target to kill? An un-bunched mob?

2. Besides:

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

y not bring both [needling shot] + [volley]?
or is that too much pwnage in one build? @__@

Tyla · May 07, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

well this is pve...
and things tend die fast to really take advantage of teh 20s disable

Maybe it is PvE, but maximizing your benefits is good. Every now and then you do face something that can be quite dangerous. HM Fire Djinns for instance, sure you can BHA then, but why not run in and D-Shot SF?

Save yourself some energy, and BHA for other dangerous casters since SF is the only dangerous skill they have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. How about when you have 1 priority target to kill? An un-bunched mob?

Well put it this way, there are better skills. Sloth Hunter's Shot? Screaming Shot? With them you get armour-ignoring +Damage, almost equal to that of Needling Shot.
And NShot needs a huge investment to be truly good ayway.

Trvth Jvstice · May 07, 2008, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Needling Shot is a fun skill, I tried it in PVE for a while, but got rid of it for better skills. However that skill works great in areas like Ft Aspenwood - with the shortage of monks there and so many people running around at <50% health - it will either kill them or make them run away.

Adja1005 · May 07, 2008, 07:49 PM // 19:49

[skill]Distracting Shot[/skill] is best used for interupting key skills (res, healing, monster or AoE) but otherwise [skill]Savage Shot[/skill] makes for a better all round interupting skill.

BHA is only really good against casters or mobs and i would much rather go the volley + BHA route than use N-Shot. And when it comes to single target take down Sloths, Screaming or Keen are far better choices. Generally N-Shot isn't a very good skill but it can be fun to use for the sake of its armour ignoring damage.

Chthon · May 07, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Well put it this way, there are better skills. Sloth Hunter's Shot? Screaming Shot? With them you get armour-ignoring +Damage, almost equal to that of Needling Shot.
And NShot needs a huge investment to be truly good ayway.

Both those skills have a recharge of 8. The DPS on needling is much higher.

Also, SlothHunter has serious problems in PvE, especially in HM, because the monster AI spams skills.

Tyla · May 07, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Against casters?
Sloth Hunter's --> Savage Shot. You get a bonus if they cast, gg.

Screaming Shot also has some extra condition pressure and can be used for moar condition spam.

By the way, these skills also work decently against enemies above 50% health.
Regardless, if they are at 50% health, with or without Needling Shot, they WILL die in around 5 seconds.
If not, it's a Monk that's extremely resilient.

Adja1005 · May 08, 2008, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Against casters?
Sloth Hunter's --> Savage Shot. You get a bonus if they cast, gg.

Screaming Shot also has some extra condition pressure and can be used for moar condition spam.

By the way, these skills also work decently against enemies above 50% health.
Regardless, if they are at 50% health, with or without Needling Shot, they WILL die in around 5 seconds.
If not, it's a Monk that's extremely resilient.

Agree 100% with you there mate. Sloth Hunter's then Savage is a favourite spike of mine especially when using Glass Arrows. Screaming Shot is also great to use even when outside earshot range and within earshot range you get to inflict some bonus condition, whats not to like about that?

But if you really have your heart set on making use of Needling Shot then i'd go with what Tyla said. The damage from a Sloth + Savage spike can be nasty, in the good sense.

Bowstring Badass · May 08, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Against casters?
Sloth Hunter's --> Savage Shot. You get a bonus if they cast, gg.

Screaming Shot also has some extra condition pressure and can be used for moar condition spam.

By the way, these skills also work decently against enemies above 50% health.
Regardless, if they are at 50% health, with or without Needling Shot, they WILL die in around 5 seconds.
If not, it's a Monk that's extremely resilient.

Willa the Unpleasant....

But yeah... You have to have d-shot in your bar it is basically an elite no matter if you have savage shot or not...

Trvth Jvstice · May 08, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

@Chthon, You mentioned DPS - I've spent quite a bit of time with the Master of Damage and tried a ton of different Marksmanship builds. You can do great damage against a mob, but against a single player I've yet to find a build that gets anywhere near as good dps as a Mele character is able to do. A Ranger is great at a lot of things, but as far as I know, dps isn't one of them - at least not with a bow. I could be wrong, I haven't played Ranger nearly as much as Nec or Warrior - I'm sure someone will let me know if I am.

Fraxian · May 08, 2008, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Personally, I fell in love with needling as soon as I got it also, its been in my skill bar forever, along with d-shot. However, you really don't have to build a build around it.

Right now im using the current skill-set:

Point Blank Shot
Zojun's Shot
Needling Shot
Distracting Shot
Glass Arrows
Brutal Weapon
Troll Unguent
Whirling Defense

This actually works petty good PvE and in AB/RA, and the build isn't entirely built around needling. Just rock back and forth between the PBS and ZS and either finish off with needling or continue with the high damage shots. On an average person/monster at around 60~80 armor, the close range shots would get the target in 3~4 shots to half and easily finished with needling. If the target healed, just go back to the two shots again since the recharge is only 3, its easy to use them one after the other.

Stormlord Alex · May 08, 2008, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Needling is actually kinda bad, tbh...
To make it work effectively, you need to put quite a lot into it - extra buff skills, attribute spread - taking away skills that could be used for disruption/utility.
Then, to use your OMGawesomesauce l33t attack, you need to get something below 50% anyway...
And once you're spamming Needling, not only do enemies in PvE not live long enough for it to really pay off; you don't end up really doing much more than what you would with Sloth Hunter's or Screaming overall.

... Just save yourself the effort and blow the enemy up with [finish him] instead.

As for PvP where Finish Him! isn't an option, sure you can use it - you just need to fit it somewhere on [savage shot][distracting shot][apply poison][natural stride][mending touch][troll unguent][resurrection signet] + elite of your choice.
Oh wait.

Tyla · May 08, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

Willa the Unpleasant....

But yeah... You have to have d-shot in your bar it is basically an elite no matter if you have savage shot or not...

Exactly why I <3 BHA.

Chthon · May 08, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

@Chthon, You mentioned DPS - I've spent quite a bit of time with the Master of Damage and tried a ton of different Marksmanship builds. You can do great damage against a mob, but against a single player I've yet to find a build that gets anywhere near as good dps as a Mele character is able to do.

No doubt. But the point of ranger damage skills is still DPS. Should I go "well, since warriors do better damage anyway, I should choose bad damage skills for my ranger like power shot"? I think not. The fact that rangers can't keep up with melee DPS without splinter is perhaps a good argument for not using damage skills at all, but it's no argument for not picking the best options if you are going to use a damage skill.

In a roundabout way though, it is a reason why needling is better than screaming/sloth/whatever. Most of the time, you shouldn't be using damage skill at all because other party member do damage better and you've got interrupting to do or nice big mobs you can hurt more with splinter+volley/barrage. The only time you're going to be using that damage skill is when you've got that rare stubborn foe that just won't die, usually a boss, and it doesn't need interrupting or is already dazed. In that context, needling is golden because you're probably looking at something with high armor and a huge amount of HP, even under 50%. Sum: Big bosses are the only foes where you'll use your damage skill as a ranger; Needling owns big bosses.

SnipiousMax · May 08, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

No doubt. But the point of ranger damage skills is still DPS.

See I think this is where I have to disagree. APART from mass attack/splinter-esque style builds or spikes, the point of ranger damage skills is SUPPLEMENTARY. You're goal should be to compliment your overall team DPS rather than focusing on one target. Single target dps has and always will be the domain of Warriors. The reason you have a warrior, is you want him to kill one target as fast as possible. Ranger's are meant and designed to be different. You should never devote your entire skill bar to damage (again, excluding splinter/barrage-esque builds). Sloth Hunter's and screaming attack are so great, because they let you contribute damage in a meaningful way without having to spend a great deal of effort or resources on them. The greatest caveat to using needling is that it requires your target to be under 50%. Apart from boses, 50% on a PvE monster is like two seconds from death in a well organized and thought out team (or H/H). If you are building your entire bar around the very brief time it takes to bring a target from <50% to 0%, then you are missing out on a significant portion of the battle.

If you need further proof that Bow's aren't supposed to be DPS monsters...think about what happened to the turret rangers. They were nerfed pretty handily because of their damage output.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

the only time you're going to be using that damage skill is when you've got that rare stubborn foe that just won't die

What about the times you aren't doing anything else that's particularly important? You should use your attack skills every time they recharge unless are doing something else productive(like distracting shot something annoying!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Needling owns big bosses

I'm not sure how Needling really holds anymore weight with bosses than it does with any other normal mob. I'm usually focused on interrupting bosses, cause I'm more worried about what they'll do to me than what I'll do to them. If your party is dependent on you in order to kill a boss, then something's wrong with your party makeup. Regardless, I still think that a shot or two from Sloth Hunters or Screaming is just as effective.

Improvavel · May 08, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Theres stuff better than [volley]+[splinter weapon], like [volley]+[great dwarf weapon]